Curse

Inde · Jul 07, 2005, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

Well, in my society our biggest problem is laziness due to prosperity, and unruliness due to poor parenting.

These terrorists come from another land far from us. In those lands it is much different than you or I envision.

These radical groups are taught that the world must be brought under the control of their diety. This pattern has been going on for 1500 years. Please read some good history textbooks before making such statements. This problem has nothing to do with who are our leaders, and what their society is like. I am a history minor, and am very passionate about world history. Why don't you read about the Battle of Tours and Charles Martel to start. Then read about the waning and fall of the Eastern Roman Empire and Constantinople. Then come back and tell me this is a recent thing due to current policy!

PS. While at it, ask the Goths what happened to them, and where they went!

I mostly disagree. Yes people are lazy. That is why people seem to be more concerned about Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes and not how they are losing civil rights since 9/11

In regards to "These radical groups are taught that the world must be brought under the control of their diety." - that is absolutely nuts. Terrorism is a violent form of rebellion. You dont just wake up one day and go 'ah - I think I will blow myself up'. Seriously - who wakes up, thinks 'Oh man, the west is so free, I hate them, why don't I go there and blow myself up?'

History has taught us that yes religion is used as a crutch. And it still is. Examples include Pakistan/India, Palestine/Israel, and a whole lot more. But looking at things as if the west is blameless and random people in the east suddenly randomly started hating the west is short-sighted and ignorant.

One quick edit: The US was founded by Terrorists. Something to have your brain chew on

Principa Discordia · Jul 07, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

One quick edit: The US was founded by Terrorists. Something to have your brain chew on

You forgot tax-dodgers.

(Kidding, kidding, although historically true.)

Edit: I suppose I should actually post something on-topic now that I've added to the page...

I'm in agreement with Inde; As bleeding-heart and liberal as it may sound, I think it's kind of short-sighted to instantly label all terrorists as bad. Yes murder is bad, and I am not denying that, I would love to see these murderous scumbags thrown behind bars for the rest of their lives, but the thing is that I can see where they're coming from. Nobody likes having someone elses way of life or religious views forced upon them, people will always fight back when that happens.

This whole thing in the middle-east is not new, it's decades old. This exact same fight over who's way of life is better has been going on for a long time, and you could call recent years the "finally snapped" phase of it. Personally, I would like to believe them when they just say "we'll stop when you pull out and leave us alone", of course the media and all my friends tell me that they won't stop, but personally I say why the hell shouldn't we even try to find some middle-ground? This doesn't just go for us westerners, of course, the terrorists and extremists are doing more than their fair share of being hard-headed and belligerant. I just refuse to believe in a conflict without the possibility of a peaceful resolution. As I've said before, I am probably jaded, but this is how I view the whole thing and I stand by it.

Darkest Dawn · Jul 07, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

I mostly disagree. Yes people are lazy. That is why people seem to be more concerned about Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes and not how they are losing civil rights since 9/11

In regards to "These radical groups are taught that the world must be brought under the control of their diety." - that is absolutely nuts. Terrorism is a violent form of rebellion. You dont just wake up one day and go 'ah - I think I will blow myself up'. Seriously - who wakes up, thinks 'Oh man, the west is so free, I hate them, why don't I go there and blow myself up?'

History has taught us that yes religion is used as a crutch. And it still is. Examples include Pakistan/India, Palestine/Israel, and a whole lot more. But looking at things as if the west is blameless and random people in the east suddenly randomly started hating the west is short-sighted and ignorant.

One quick edit: The US was founded by Terrorists. Something to have your brain chew on

First, please read the prescribed subjects I listed above. What I'm telling you is easily verifiable by reading. This is not my opinion. I will let historical fact speak for itself. This hateing has been going on all along. It is not new.

Secondly, if we followed your logic of terrorism is the result of the evils of society, then if anyone had the reason to terrorize, it would be the Jews. They have been maligned and butchered by many societies for thousands of years. Yet they aren't so. Where are the jewish bombers blowing up Berlin?

Again, I choose historical knowledge over modern logic when I apply my thoughts. You are, of course, able to make your own conclusions. The one size fits all thought process is also not a good way to understand a particular situation. However, I digress....

EmperorTippy · Jul 07, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

One quick edit: The US was founded by Terrorists. Something to have your brain chew on

Very ture. I was wondering if I should add tht or not but figuired that it might offend some people.

Read and listen to Islamic teaching. They promote peace and terriorst groups that use Islam are perveting one of the worlds oldest and noblest religions. The people who bomb abortion clinics do so in the name of god and the bible. Should we say that christianity promotes terrirsom? The fact is that religion is used as a reason for an action first to avoid blame for your own actions and second to recruit people. People trusts their ministers and priests and clerics. If you bring 1 towns priests to your side they can effectivily brainwash an entire towns population to their views. Look at what effects your views the most: Family, Religion, Education, News (or information), and Personal Experiance. With the exception of the last 2 they are in the order of most effect and the last 2 are about equal.

Principa Discordia · Jul 07, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

Secondly, if we followed your logic of terrorism is the result of the evils of society, then if anyone had the reason to terrorize, it would be the Jews. They have been maligned and butchered by many societies for thousands of years. Yet they aren't so. Where are the jewish bombers blowing up Berlin?

Just thought I'd point out that Jewish people, as far as I am aware, are not raised understanding a consept known as "jihad" which their religion says may be used to preserve their religion and culture (although in the case of modern times it's pretty misunderstood or misused as an excuse.)

Darkest Dawn · Jul 07, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

Just thought I'd point out that Jewish people, as far as I am aware, are not raised understanding a consept known as "jihad" which their religion says may be used to preserve their religion and culture (although in the case of modern times it's pretty misunderstood or misused as an excuse.)

You are mostly correct! They are not taught to fight other countries for that preservation, but problems IN their country!

So the terrorism is a matter of teaching and doctrine, not natural reaction due to issues per se. My point exactly!

Principa Discordia · Jul 07, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

You are mostly correct! They are not taught to fight other countries for that preservation, but problems IN their country!

So the terrorism is a matter of teaching and doctrine, not natural reaction due to issues per se. My point exactly!

I'm not defending how they use jihad to justify their actions, but I can see why they'd use a shared idea such as jihad when they feel that their way of life and religion is under threat. I was just pointing out why the Jewish people don't commit mass-murder, in response to the comparison you posted, Jewish people are not raised with an idea/motivation such as jihad tought to them as children. Might be different if they were.

Besides, it's really not all that different to Bush talking about God all the time to justify his actions, is it?

It's just two sides of the same coin. Both sides are out of order, neither side will back down, and both sides are too hard-headed to admit it. This is why we'll have an endless cycle of hate and war for generations.

EmperorTippy · Jul 07, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

First, please read the prescribed subjects I listed above. What I'm telling you is easily verifiable by reading. This is not my opinion. I will let historical fact speak for itself. This hateing has been going on all along. It is not new.

Secondly, if we followed your logic of terrorism is the result of the evils of society, then if anyone had the reason to terrorize, it would be the Jews. They have been maligned and butchered by many societies for thousands of years. Yet they aren't so. Where are the jewish bombers blowing up Berlin?

Again, I choose historical knowledge over modern logic when I apply my thoughts. You are, of course, able to make your own conclusions. The one size fits all thought process is also not a good way to understand a particular situation. However, I digress....

The Jews are smart they control all the money. So they don't need to blow up anything

But the reason that the Jews don't do terrorist attacks is that if they do the U.S. will stop supporting them and the instant that happens Israle (I know I messed up the spelling) will be taken over by the arabic and Islamic nations in the region. Another reason that the Jews don't use terrorism is that they have succeded in their goals without it. About 99% of the world despises anything that promotes the Nazi view point and Hitler is almost universaly reviled.

Also you might say that Israle (Again with the spelling) government does you terror as a weapon. Look at what happened when terriorist attempted to hijack the plane carying their olympic team in the 70's. The guards on the plane tied them to chairs and cut their throats. They haven't had anymore attempted hijackings of their planes. Mossad is one of the most feared government organizations in the world. Why you ask, because they use assinations and kidnappings to get terrorists and people they want dead or to talk to. If you want proof a couple of years ago they sent a missle through the bedroom window of the leader of Hammass.

Fear is very powerful and it is why terrorism is used.

Darkest Dawn · Jul 07, 2005, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Are you folks trying to wear me out, or get my post count up to the vaunted Ministry of Knowledge naming! lol

Seriously, I am dealing with this one situation. I don't want to go down rabbit trails on the other evils of society. Trust me, there ARE many. I don't disagree with you.

I'm just saying it is in their "book" to kill infidels. These guys are simply living up to there teachings. Just as they were in the historical contexts I asked another to read up on. That's all I'm saying. The context of this thread was concerning the horrid bombings in the UK. I don't want to go on every evil everyone has done. Let's face it. if someone was to have a film of all of your or my darkest secrets and past blunders and were to put them to a large screen for everyone to watch, I don't think many, if any would care to show up and see peoples reactions! So... I'm not going to stand and act like I am better than anyone. I am just regurgitating historical issues that didn't originate with me!

So therefore, I will digress and let the matter conclude on my part. I made my point, and respectfully have read yours. Besides, I'm getting off work and would much rather play Guild Wars that talk with you all!!!

ManadartheHealer · Jul 07, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

For future reference:

Israel-the country
Israeli-the people

And Israel does use "terrorist-like" methods (ex. I think they assassinated someone, but I can't really remember for sure). It's just that, since we support Israel, they are not "terrorists", they are "freedom-fighters" or whatever (Just like in Nicaragua

)

EmperorTippy · Jul 07, 2005, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

For future reference:

Israel-the country
Israeli-the people

And Israel does use "terrorist-like" methods (ex. I think they assassinated someone, but I can't really remember for sure). It's just that, since we support Israel, they are not "terrorists", they are "freedom-fighters" or whatever (Just like in Nicaragua

)

So true I must corect my post and change all refrences of Israeli Terrorism to freedom fighting.

Darkest Dawn · Jul 07, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Yes so true! Now I realize that taking out a terror leader is in fact, the same as blowing up a bus full of children! Thank you for clarifying this! Such intellect! Now I regret bringing up the Jews 'cause they're gonna get bashed now.... I'm done with this nonsense. Have at it.....

EmperorTippy · Jul 07, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

Yes so true! Now I realize that taking out a terror leader is in fact, the same as blowing up a bus full of children! Thank you for clarifying this! Such intellect! Now I regret bringing up the Jews 'cause they're gonna get bashed now.... I'm done with this nonsense. Have at it.....

Refers you to your last post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

So therefore, I will digress and let the matter conclude on my part. I made my point, and respectfully have read yours. Besides, I'm getting off work and would much rather play Guild Wars that talk with you all!!!

Principa Discordia · Jul 07, 2005, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Proof that these forums are addictive!

ManadartheHealer · Jul 07, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

Yes so true! Now I realize that taking out a terror leader is in fact, the same as blowing up a bus full of children! Thank you for clarifying this! Such intellect! Now I regret bringing up the Jews 'cause they're gonna get bashed now.... I'm done with this nonsense. Have at it.....

It was never said they were the same. But, "two wrongs don't make a right".

I myself would take that bastard out anyway. But I would understand that the act makes me guilty of a little "terrorist activity" as well

Personally, though, I am rooting for Israel. Jews (on the average) seem a lot less dogmatic that Muslims (this is simply a generailzation; plus, I know more Jews personally than I do muslims. So, it is probably just my own ignorance)

Darkest Dawn · Jul 07, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

It was never said they were the same. But, "two wrongs don't make a right".

I myself would take that bastard out anyway. But I would understand that the act makes me guilty of a little "terrorist activity" as well

Personally, though, I am rooting for Israel. Jews (on the average) seem a lot less dogmatic that Muslims (this is simply a generailzation; plus, I know more Jews personally than I do muslims. So, it is probably just my own ignorance)

My comment wasn't aimed at you... BTW I got home and was about to log in to GW. Just thought I'd peek at this thread, lol

I see a big difference in, say, intercepting a murderer before he killed my wife, verses hating a certain person or way of life and killing their children.

The terrorists in Iraq are killing not the soldiers, so much, but the civilians of Iraq! These folks are nasty, not freedom fighters, they fight not for freedom. If so then why kill their own people from their own religion? No, they kill their own so they don't succeed in being free!

Darkest Dawn · Jul 07, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorTippy

Refers you to your last post.

lol, sorry

I personally enjoy chatting with you. I harbor no hard feelings!

EmperorTippy · Jul 07, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

My comment wasn't aimed at you... BTW I got home and was about to log in to GW. Just thought I'd peek at this thread, lol

I see a big difference in, say, intercepting a murderer before he killed my wife, verses hating a certain person or way of life and killing their children.

The terrorists in Iraq are killing not the soldiers, so much, but the civilians of Iraq! These folks are nasty, not freedom fighters, they fight not for freedom. If so then why kill their own people from their own religion? No, they kill their own so they don't succeed in being free!

No one ever said that the terriorsts in Iraq were freedom fighters. Mandrarth said that people that the U.S. supports are freedom fighters and the others are terrorists. (that is unless they have enough recources that the U.S. wants so they can buy us off)

Darkest Dawn · Jul 07, 2005, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorTippy

No one ever said that the terriorsts in Iraq were freedom fighters. Mandrarth said that people that the U.S. supports are freedom fighters and the others are terrorists. (that is unless they have enough recources that the U.S. wants so they can buy us off)

That has happened at times. However, I am my own person. I tend to support the oppressed, whomever they are. I kinda root for the underdog in cases of those who suffer injustice.

Also, while term limits, and fresh leadership every 4-8 years is good for us, usually, it can also mean differing stances on who we are helping or not. To us it is simply the result in a change of administration, but to those outside the US, it comes across as an abandonment of our word. This is a problem, but not one that should be discussed on this thread.

Anyways, it was nice to discuss these things.

Again, my heart goes out to the UK. I will keep you all in my thoughts and prayers! Good night.

EmperorTippy · Jul 07, 2005, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

That has happened at times. However, I am my own person. I tend to support the oppressed, whomever they are. I kinda root for the underdog in cases of those who suffer injustice.

Also, while term limits, and fresh leadership every 4-8 years is good for us, usually, it can also mean differing stances on who we are helping or not. To us it is simply the result in a change of administration, but to those outside the US, it comes across as an abandonment of our word. This is a problem, but not one that should be discussed on this thread.

Anyways, it was nice to discuss these things.

Again, my heart goes out to the UK. I will keep you all in my thoughts and prayers! Good night.

I was mostly joking with the () part of my last post.

I do think that the term limits are good, I'm American BTW I live right outside of DC.

Yes nice dicussing with you.